I want to talk about the 10 commandments in this series of posts. As long as it has to do with Sanctification (growth in holiness after we’re justified), it’s a non-essential doctrine to me. What I mean is that there are Christians on both sides of this issue (on whether the 10 commandments apply to the Christian life) and while I have pretty strong convictions about this issue, it shouldn’t be something the divides the body of Christ. It’s therefore a non-essential doctrine in my opinion. However, if any Christian believes that we have to obey the 10 commandments in order to be saved – therefore this relates to Justification, not Sanctification – then that’s something serious. Serious enough that we should speak against such errors. Such teaching relates to an essential doctrine (Justification) we cannot compromise. But I don’t know any church or Christian who believes such. However, I do think there are many sermons preached that are very confusing on this point and which give the impression that we have to attain some level of goodness (be it defined in terms of repentance or whatever) in order to be saved. But that’s something else altogether.
So this series of posts is going to be about the 10 commandments merely as it relates to Sanctification. While this is a non-essential issue to me, I would challenge my readers to think through this issue and have a fair discussion – I’m still learning too. But ultimately if others don’t agree with me, I’m glad to agree to disagree with those who differ. I will not call you names, nor will I think lesser of you as a Christian. I hope those who have similar views to me will not divide the body of Christ over this issue, just as I hope the same for those who disagree with me (and Christians like myself). Because, as I’ve said, this is a non-essential doctrine in comparison to other more important doctrines.
Most of what I’ve written above has nothing to do with the Ten Commandments (the title of this series of posts), but I guess this is such a controversial issue as it relates to New Creation’s teachings that I had to write the introductory comments above. New Creation has been unfairly criticized for their view of the Ten Commandments and emotions overflow when discussing this topic. See for example the comments that follow this post by Pastor Kong Hee. I respect Pastor Kong Hee greatly (and I’ve said many times here I think City Harvest is an awesome Church) but I would strongly disagree with many things he wrote in his post – especially his case that the Ten Commandments are for today. In this post and those that follow, I’ll state why I disagree with him by pointing to the views of other Christians, though not that of Pastor Prince, because there are many other Christians who hold to a similar view (maybe not exactly the same but more similar to his view than to the views of those who criticize New Creation on this issue) to him on the non-relevance of the 10 commandments to the Christian life. In fact, I learned about how we’re not under the 10 commandments as a rule of life from other Christians.
New Creation Church is well-known for its belief that the 10 commandments has no place in the Christian life, that the 10 commandments were not meant to be a guide for the Christian. Before I even heard of New Creation Church, I already encountered the debate about the relevance of the 10 Commandments for the Christian. I’ve always emphasized this when talking about New Creation’s controversial doctrines: even though I’m attending New Creation, I held to a lot of the doctrines that New Creation is criticized for even before I knew of New Creation Church. Pastor Prince and New Creation didn’t convince me about such doctrines. They have taught me a lot of things, but I learned about the most essential aspects of grace and also about the non-relevance of the 10 commandments for Christians years ago. It’s not as though New Creation is the only church that teaches such stuff. Regarding New Creation’s view of the 10 commandments not being applicable to the Christian life, I want to argue in this post that New Creation’s view, while perhaps not a majority view among Christians (hey, for us charismatics, let’s not forget that tongues being for church today was a minority view in the early 20th century!), is held by many Christians around the world.
Let me post a long quote by Douglas Moo, a very well-respected New Testament scholar. This is taken from his response to William VanGemeren’s view of the law in the book Five Views on Law and Gospel:
I do not think that the Christian is directly responsible to obey any part of the Mosaic law. Or, to put the matter differently, I think the Mosaic law as a whole was given to Israel for a limited time and purpose and is no longer immediately authoritative for the Christian.
…I want to make clear that I am not denying that the Mosaic law, especially the Ten Commandments, contains principles and requirements that reflect God’s eternal moral will. My point, rather, is that the Mosaic law is not identical with this eternal moral law. It is part of a covenant document entered into with the nation Israel and is therefore specifically addressed to Israel – and not to the new covenant community. Reformed theologians such as VanGemeren admit that the greater part of the Mosaic law was given to Israel and is no longer directly authoritative for the Christian – the “casuistic”, or the “civil” and “ceremonial” law. But they insist that part of the law is directed to the community of believers in every age – the “apodictic” laws or the “moral” law, which is found especially (or only) in the Ten Commandments. VanGemeren therefore insists on a continuity of the “moral law” within the larger discontinuity of the Mosaic covenant and its law. It is just this treatment of one part of the Mosaic law in a way different from the rest of it that I question.
…I am insisting that it means that we, as new covenant believers, no longer obey the law in the form it was originally given; we are not directly under its authority.
…The Mosaic commandments, then, are not directly applicable to us, but only as they are passed on to us by Christ.
…I am arguing, then, that the Sabbath commandment is a crucial “test case,” suggesting that the Ten Commandments, in their Mosaic form, were not intended by God to be eternally binding on all people everywhere. All ten were expressions of God’s will for his people Israel; and we know, from the New Testament, that nine of them state commands that continue to be binding on New Testament believers. They are binding on us not because they are in the Ten Commandments but because the New Testament makes clear that they are expressions of God’s eternal moral law.
…The “law” under which Christians live is continuous with the Mosaic law in that God’s eternal moral norms, which never change, are clearly expressed in both. But there is discontinuity in the fact that Christians live under the “law of Christ” and not under the Mosaic law. Our source for determining God’s eternal moral law is Christ and the apostles, not the Mosaic law or even the Ten Commandments. It is, then, the commandments of Christ and the apostles to which Paul is referring in 1 Corinthians 7:19 when he claims that “keeping God’s commands is what that counts”… This text is thoroughly consistent with the opinion that the Mosaic law does not apply directly to the Christian.
(Five Views on Law and Gospel, p. 84, 87-89)
We who don’t believe that the Ten Commandments are directly applicable and relevant to Christians as a guide in the New Covenant are not saying that Christians can sin all we want. We’re not saying that there are no laws or guidelines or rules that we should obey (not to gain salvation, but because we are already saved and we want to obey God). Yes, there are. Jesus and the Apostles have given us many “laws” – what could be termed as the “law of Christ”.
We’re also not saying that the Ten Commandments are bad or evil. A lot of the “laws” given to us by Jesus and the Apostles are not different from a lot of the Ten Commandments. As Moo said, both the Ten Commandments and the “law of Christ” are expressions of God’s eternal moral law. So, one may ask, why be so critical of those who say the Ten Commandments are for today? For one reason, the Mosaic law and the Ten Commandments were there for a specific purpose and a specific time in the history of redemption. It is not that the Ten Commandments doesn’t reflect God’s character. It does. But the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic law had a role to play and that role is over. In the New Covenant, the “law of Christ” guides us and is a more ultimate expression of God’s character and the eternal moral law.
What helped me to understand the above is what theologians call Biblical Theology. When theologians talk about Biblical Theology, it’s not just theology that is biblical. Rather, it’s a way of reading the Bible that takes into account the place of the passage we’re reading in the history of redemption. For example, many Christians sing the song “Create in me a clean heart” based on David’s words in Psalm 51. There’s a part that goes
Cast me not away from Your presence, O Lord.
And take not Your Holy Spirit from me
This is taken from Psalm 51:11. I don’t think it’s right for Christians to sing these lines simply because this was David’s experience in the Old Covenant and before the Holy Spirit had been poured out to dwell in every Christian. Something new and different actually happens in the New Covenant – that’s why it’s called “New”! Guess what: We Christians living in the post-death/resurrection of Jesus and post-pouring out of the Spirit at Pentecost have it really good compared to the Saints in the Old Testament. The Holy Spirit dwells with us and never leaves us – that’s why our experience is different from David. Before the Spirit came at Pentecost, He didn’t dwell forever in the lives of the Saints. That’s why David could cry out to God for Him not to take His Holy Spirit away from him. Furthermore, David’s cry for a “clean heart” and “steadfast/willing spirit” (verse 10) shouldn’t really be the cry of the New Covenant Christian for in the New Covenant all Christians do have that (Ezekial 36:26-27, Heb. 10:2). Our experience as New Covenant Christians is thus very different from those who lived before. We now have a new/clean heart and a steadfast/willing spirit. And the Holy Spirit dwells in us and never leaves us. But of course that doesn’t mean we can take Him for granted. We are still to yearn to be filled more and more with His Spirit (Eph. 5:18).
My point in all of this is that it’s important to understand each passage in terms of where it is situated in the history of redemption. If we understand this principle, we’ll better understand why many Christians see that the Mosaic law (and Ten Commandments) existed only for a certain time in the history of redemption. Of course, not all people who appreciate Biblical Theology would come to the same conclusion on the Ten Commandments as me or Moo, but many do.
I’m not concerned about getting Christians to believe as New Creation or I do on the Ten Commandments. I’m more concerned to see Christians acknowledging that the above interpretation of the Ten Commandments is a viable position with good biblical support. In every doctrine, there will always be disagreements. But it’s sad to see people criticize New Creation (and Christians who don’t believe the Ten Commandments are relevant to Christians today) as though we’re trying to twist Scriptures or are ignorant of Scriptures. I think only the truly ignorant would think absolutely nothing of the arguments that theologians like Douglas Moo make. By the way, Moo has taught in two of the most moderate Christian/theological institutions in the evangelical world: Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and Wheaton College, both arguably the best evangelical seminary and best evangelical college in the world respectively. So he’s by no means a radical!
In the end, we really only disagree as to where we go to see God’s will for our lives. Whether Christians believe that the Ten Commandments is or isn’t directly relevant to the Christian today, we are all still united in agreeing that obedience is important for the Christian. That’s why, for me, this is a non-essential doctrine not worth dividing the body of Christ over. And I hope Christians of both views will stop being overly critical of, and stop demonizing, the other side.
This post being essentially about the place of the 10 commandments as it relates to santification, I would like to discuss what my understanding of this is from New Creation Church’s teaching.
Contrary to what has been written here,
my understanding is that Pastor Prince does not teach that the 10 commandments has “no place” in the Christian life, but instead he teaches about the place it has in light of what Jesus fulfilled at the cross.
This is what Jesus fulfilled at the cross – “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” (Matthew 5:17). When Jesus died on calvary, He cried “It is finished.” to demonstrate the fulfillment of what He had come to do. In light of this, we see the Jesus who lives in our hearts today as the same Jesus who has fulfilled the law. The word says, “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.” (Galations 2:20) It is this same Jesus who lives in us, so it is not that the 10 commandments has no place in the believer’s life in the new covenant, but that it is Jesus who is now living in the believer and through the believer to demonstrate the fulfillment of the 10 commandments in the believer’s life. In other words, it is not that the 10 commandments is no longer relevant in terms of being obedient to them, but rather that it has become relevant in a new way in the sense that they have been obeyed by the Jesus who lives in the believer. There is a difference between the believer who lives his life trying to obey the 10 commandments, and the believer who lives his life recognizing that what has to be done has been fulfilled because Jesus who has achieved that lives in him and through him. The relevance is still present in the new covenant, just that it has achieved a different meaning with Jesus. There is still a place for the 10 commandments in the new covenant, but the place lies in the heart of the believer who now lives in Christ.
“This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts.” (Jeremiah 31:33)
Hi shf,
I share the same position as you i.e. “As long as it has to do with Sanctification (growth in holiness after we’re justified), it’s a non-essential doctrine to me.”
However, I find that there are (I suspect, many) Christians who believe that sanctification is part of justification, and therefore the Ten Commandments is critical to their justification. I think this is because they are taught in church that their salvation is not assured, based on an erroneous interpretation of Matt 7:21 – “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”
Hi sarah, yes, you could put it that way too. I have no problems with that. When I stressed that it has “no place”, my point is that we are not directly under the Ten Commandments as a guide for our Sanctification, something I believe New Creation teaches. You are right in saying that if we see any “relevance” of the Ten Commandments to the Christian life, we see it not as a guide, but as something fulfilled by Christ already. Thus, it’s relevant to the Christian in that way (as already fulfilled in Christ), but not relevant as something we look to for guidance in the New Covenant. I think both are not mutually exclusive but complementary – for if Christ has already fulfilled the Ten Commandments, we don’t need to do so.
Stanley, yes, I agree with you that many Christians are given the impression through the preaching in their churches, or do actually believe, that their Justification is somehow dependent on their Sanctification and perhaps the living out of the Ten Commandments even.
“There is a difference between the believer who lives his life trying to obey the 10 commandments, and the believer who lives his life recognizing that what has to be done has been fulfilled because Jesus who has achieved that lives in him and through him.”
The believer( or most believers) experience contradict the above statement.
Let me briefly explain.
Going by your doctrine, anyone outside of christ is hopeless in obeying the 10 Biggies. But alas, someone who accepted christ also has not succeeded in obeying the 10 Biggies, But now, there is a new twist or explanation in the believer’s failure. And the secret lies in living in the finish work of christ rather than relying on one’s strength to obey the 10 biggies.
But what is the reality despite a change in the approach?
Fact is, no matter which position you take 1) outside of christ 2) in christ but living in your own strength 3) in christ living in christ strength
People still behave more or less the same, they continue in sin – incapable of fulfilling the 10 biggies or live a holy life that stand out from those who do not adhere to your kind of teachings.
So JP doctrine does not really transform the individual – that’s the sorry truth if you care to be honest.
All my years of observing Christians led me to conclude that there is really no substance in such teachings.In fact, many seasoned christian behaved worse than those who are freer.
Consider Thou shall not fornicate/commit adultery. How many Christians are fornicating or have stopped fornicating?
With or without christ in you, you will confinue to do what is right.
Go read survey and demographic studies on this faith and you will be shocked by how unchristian christians are.
Put it this way, if it works, the world whole would have been a much better place by now
More love and less INTOLERANCE by christians.
Prince Minsity has been around for almost 30 years. If there is any substance to his teaching, his church would have grown tens of times greater than its current capacity of 20 to 25k.
You would probably find his “older” or much mature followers outnumber the predominantly younger believers you see in his church today.
But the reality is, it is easier to constantly recruit a younger and INEXPERIENCE generation( or most of his followers are probably less than 5 years in his church. if they stay beyond that, than i question their depth of biblical knowledge and the extent of “love for people” in their lives) to invest in his church. His growing popularity only means he has successfully tailored a message to pander to a “lustful generation” – lust of the eye, lust of the flesh and the PRIDE of life.
The more experience and older believers, who are more enlightened, tend to leave his church, some after a number of years.
In other words, there is no substance to keep older believers unless you are really the “hardcore type” or too stubborn to deal with contradictions after contradictions.
I wish you people could talk to his “old friends”. They will have a lot of stories to tell, not out of envious, but simply flabbergasted at his rise and influence.
Lastly, try living 1 cor 13 – on love( this commandment is far far more demanding). How many can say they live in and walk the talk of love in his church?
If JP doctrines can transform his huge number of followers to a “love machine”, Singapore would have been a very different place today.
Politics would change and there would be perhaps less pursuit of materialism and prideful living and more of EQUALITY, kindness, depth and “loving thy neighbors”(not just giving away money – a very good excuse in collecting more for themselves(pastors) or justifying their high salary or financial blessings.
Hi Cherry,
I’m not sure your reason for posting your posts. I try not to approve posts which are off-topic because many people just want to take advantage of any opportunity to attack New Creation or Joseph Prince or even Christians in general, rather than engage with the topic at hand.
To respond to you, I don’t think anyone is saying that Christians will live out the Ten Commandments perfectly. Definitely not – even if so-called living by God’s strength. As long as we’re still on earth, we will all still sin. Even Christians still
Is there a difference between the lifestyle of the non-Christian and a Christian? Ideally, that should be the case. But it’s not often so, granted. However, I do believe that there should be a change when a non-Christian becomes a Christian. I think many Christians will testify, and also New Creation Christians will testify, of how God has changed their lives as they encounter Jesus Christ and understand about the love and grace of God.
Christians are surely imperfect people and, yes, intolerant too. We need to learn to show more love and grace, and be less judgmental. I agree with you on this. It would be wonderful if Christians were known more for their love and grace, than their intolerance and judgmental attitudes.
The rest of what you posted I consider unfair and baseless criticisms which I shall not respond to. Cheers!
“Is there a difference between the lifestyle of the non-Christian and a Christian? Ideally, that should be the case. But it’s not often so, granted. However, I do believe that there should be a change when a non-Christian becomes a Christian. I think many Christians will testify, and also New Creation Christians will testify, of how God has changed their lives as they encounter Jesus Christ and understand about the love and grace of God.”
On that, we don’t see any exceptional changes in your life. If you have “grown personally”, good. But so do MANY non-christians.
So why all the “powerful claims” by these preachers when it does not make a great difference in people’s lives other then themselves(if you know what i mean)?
Salvation is about TRANSFORMATION(to be christ like).
Can your doctrine convert a pedophile priest?
If your grace doctrine works, and I don’t mean to be sarcastic, please get your leaders to talk to the Pope.
Because THOUSANDS of pedophile priests have been praying and serving jesus and living in SIN( don’t that make these people hypocrites?).
And that is only the tip of the iceberg. There are millions living in other kinds of BONDAGES that need deliverance.
Where is this “powerful grace” you preached about? Such as: I can do all things through christ or I am an overcomer in Christ or SIN has NO DOMINION over me etc.(there are many of such quotes freely and liberally espoused – doesn’t any of these priests or christians know that?)
I think you have concluded well.
“Christians are surely imperfect people and, yes, intolerant too. ”
I am glad I am not making any promises or claims.
Interesting comments.
I agree with SHF that we do not have to follow the Ten Commandments as it was given as a covenant between God and the people of Israel. By the same token, we are all new covenant Christians. Hence, any commandments given to us by Christ is to be followed. This is the law of Christ. It works out that all the Ten commandments except the sabbath is reflected in the law of Christ.
Cherry’s comments are interesting. After reading them carefully, i must say that i agree with 90% of what she says.
Let me explain.
1. the 10% i disagree with is the fact that Cherry takes church growth and numbers as a reflection of spirituality and God’s approval of the church. That is so far from the truth! Numbers should never be an indicator. Instead, the individual spiritual maturity of the church believers should be the gold standard.
2. JP teachings are very akin to Joel Osteen (which is incidentally hollow cotton floss theology). It caters for what we want to hear. How to make MY life more comfortable, how to make ME happier, how to improve MY level of happiness and financial well being….the list goes on.
When everything is all about ME ( even though it is ME first so i can help others later excuse/justification), we have lost all context of the true meaning of the gospel.
Jesus came to change the whole social order of the 1st century, expressing that it was not about ME but about others.
A church who predominantly preaches ME, in my opinion has lost the plot. When ME becomes the main doctrine, what is reflected is a lifestyle of selfishness.. no different from any other non Christian.
3. SHF makes a good point that we should, study the Old testament in context. He rightly says that the Mosaic law was meant for the children of Israel and not us. That in my opinion is 100% accurate.
We should then scan the other covenants/promises made to the Children of Israel and apply them in contect as well.
JP frequently expounds that we should take hold of the promises of Deuteronomy and be the head and not the tail! Why is that promise not examined in the light of it being to the Children of Israel?
4. Financial gain/prosperity has never been the construct of New testament theology. Why twist Old testament scripture to justify it?
Returning back to the ten commandments. if we agree that it was not meant to us but a special promise to the Israelites, we cannot justify half of JP’s teachings which ground themselves in the OT and twisted to conform to our sinful desires for wealth and financial prosperity.
I do not think I am so unfair to say that.
Generally excellent comments above.
For the typical achieving Singaporean Christian, the teaching of the 10 Commandments as commandments still to follow presents a real danger to true faith in Christ. Teaching the 10 Commandments this way can lure a believer to unconsciously strive for his/her justification of salvation.
I’ve seen how this sort of teaching agitates and frustrates believers who aren’t the ‘achieving’ sort (typically low income, at-risk, and/or broken individuals). Instead of setting them free, as should right teaching, it does the opposite. Perhaps a litmus test of right teaching is what it gives to those who are truly wretched and desperate.
I’d also like to highlight Romans chapter 7, about what it says about how sin can come through the law. Better still, read the letter of Romans again *grin*
With regards to the financial gain/prosperity views, it’s another minefield. If we aren’t careful, there’s a lot of self involved. And in today’s society where much worldliness has penetrated the church, all the more dangerous. Therefore it makes for another matter we must continue to seek God for, personally and corporately.
SHF must try to understand the outrage to such teachings.
Surely, we are not the only ones who can’t understand the grandeur of the church promises and claims?
If the church teaches only forgiveness and love, I can tell you, JP, and all these mega churches, would not be as popular or be such a big draw.
These people who flock to their churches are excited or have been stirred into excitement of the potential “windfall”(GIFTS/BLESSINGS) in the spirit world.
Surely SHF knows what we are talking about? These promises and claims are SUPERNATURAL in nature.
You are talking about infinite power accessible to anyone who believes(christ in you the hope of glory- exclusive btw). Divine power to OVERCOME SINS(and many other blessings such as wealth,health,favors etc) which…and please correct me, only and only found IN CHRIST, no other sources?
If so, we asked, please show us the proof in your exceptional behavior(Which we see NO evidence of)? Please show clear and concrete evidences of divine appropriation(health,wealth,favors etc)Is that too much to ask of a people who made such boast and incredible claims?
Can you now understand why the public outrage/fears – or at least how we feel?
Hi meeple,
JP preached together with Joel Osteen last year. I know Osteen’s stuff are catching on with NCC members. I am actually quite surprised by that. I’m not against Osteen, but I think there is one hugely important difference between Osteen and JP and that is that while both focus on favour and blessings, JP couldn’t be clearer in pointing to the gospel of Jesus Christ as the reason we are blessed. Osteen, meanwhile, tends to speak less of the Bible and especially much less than JP on the gospel of Jesus Christ. While that’s a concern, I’m much less critical than you of Osteen because I think there’s a place for what he’s doing.
I disagree with what you said about NCC’s messages being “me-centered”. This debate has been played out a few times already on this blog. Again, while acknowledging your concern, I also think there’s a place for emphasizing how much God loves us and wants to bless us in Christ – there’s a huge place for that.
Meeple, you make a good comment on the place of Deut. 28 and other OT blessings and promises in the light of the New Covenant. I’ll mull over that but let me give you a preliminary response here:
1) I don’t think there’s anything wrong pointing to Abraham and how God blessed him and taking a principle from all that which is still relevant to New Covenant Christians. The principle is that God is good to His people and desires to bless them. This principle can be seen in places in the New Covenant like Matt. 7:11, Rom. 8:32, among many other passages that reaffirm the fact that God desires to bless us.
2) Regarding the Deut. 28 blessings which is under the Mosaic Covenant, how is it relevant to the New Covenant Christian? Well, Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Covenant. In Jesus, we are recipients of the blessings because Jesus obeyed for us.
3) We can disagree with the 2nd and even the 1st point, but still believe that God desires to bless us. There are many NT passages which speak of this (some I quoted above).
4) We can also look to the promises in the passages on prayers.
5) We can also look to the kingdom principle. The kingdom of God has come in Jesus Christ’s first coming. The kingdom of God includes all things good and perfect. Whatever is in heaven, we look forward to seeing on earth – Let your kingdom come on earth as in heaven. This includes not only healing and all, but also prosperity and all things good. Sure, the Kingdom also has a “not yet” aspect to it, but that doesn’t mean we focus on the “not yet”. We seek the kingdom come, as Jesus prayed.
6) This doesn’t mean I agree that everyone who has faith will be prosperous. We’re still living in the world and things come in the way of the Kingdom coming – structures, injustice, sin. But there is nothing wrong with emphasizing and looking forward to the good things of the kingdom. Yes, we should not be selfish – we’re blessed to bless others.
7) I think that NCC’s version of prosperity is probably the most “balanced” I’ve seen. It’s not perfectly “balanced”. But on one side you have tele-evangelists who keep on asking for money (NCC and I believe also Osteen don’t do it like that). On the other side, you have Christians who so dislike the tele-evangelists and NCC/Osteen that they’d rather focus on the Kingdom “not yet” and prefer to glory in and harp on the fact that God hasn’t promised in any way to bless Christians with prosperity. To me, that’s simply an over-reaction. Is NCC perfect? By no means. But I’ve yet to come across any Christian who is critical of NCC and yet doesn’t fall into the trap of over-reaction.
I am not from NCC and I do share some of Chin’s concerns about the selfish reasons people are drawn to church for.
Yet this is how God sometimes (or many times) draws us to Him. He starts with something that is important to us (health, wealth, girlfriend/wife, etc.), then draws us into a deeper relationship with Him, and as this relationship grows, He helps us to shed more and more of our selfishness so we become more submitted to Him.
In all fairness, even more traditional churches have their fair share of people who attend/serve for selfish reasons. It might not be obvious, but they are there too. Some boost their egos being leaders and/or being busy in different types of church work, some enjoy staying in their own comfort zones which their church happily lets them be in without exhorting them into more of God. etc. The list does continue…
Personally, I have also seen how a broken young man, after reading Joseph Prince’s first book, became set free of many bondages and strongholds in his life. While I do not agree with 100% of what JP teaches or how NCC does things, I do know that it is not JP nor NCC that set this young man free. It is Jesus Himself and His words of life.
Chin Say, I am not sure where you are coming from, but a lot of what you say sound as if you are bashing from afar (pardon my bluntness). I recommend a first hand experience of prolonged and heartfelt seeking, with an open heart and ear to God’s word. Attend NCC for a bit, read and listen to Joseph Prince. I believe you’ll be pleasantly surprised.
Chin, I don’t think you can make the absolute claim that JP’s preaching has not made “a great difference in people’s lives”. Obviously you don’t know many New Creation members and you’re just making a sweeping and false judgment.
Regarding the Roman Catholic church and all, I do think that their legalism is indeed a cause of a lot of their troubles. That’s not to say that Christians under grace are perfect. We’re all living in an imperfect world and we all still struggle with sin. But I’m a firm believer that focusing on grace is what overcomes sin. But sure, we’re not living in heaven now. We’re still on earth and we’re still imperfect.
New Creation is not the only church that talks about the supernatural power we possess in Christ. Paul does that in Ephesians 1 and many churches which would not agree with NCC’s teachings would still have to be faithful to the text and preach all the goodness and blessings and power we have in Christ in Eph. 1-3.
Your point regarding contradiction between what the Bible says and the evidence from Christians’ lives is well taken. I would like to address this one day in terms of the teaching of “already” and “not yet”.
Chin, you’ve written some valid points that need to be addressed. I do understand the struggles of Christians with the “over-triumphalistic” theology that NCC is accused of preaching. I have NCC friends that I interact with that are struggling with some of the issues you’ve mentioned. I don’t have all the answers. But if only you’ll be less sweeping in your judgment and statements, your voice would be heard better here.
There are many reasons which can be attributed to change of behavior – positive thinking,group therapy etc which is also practiced in churches. But when a person changes, the person “transformation” is often attributed to God. Here again, there is no clear evidence that God has changed the individual but as for the vast majority of church goers, one thing is certain, these people don’t behave like Christ or behaviors reflective of its extraordinary claims – that include those in leadership)especially).
Point is, the promises and claims always come with an “exit clause” or “conditioner clause” which is very elastic and can be conveniently applied under scrutiny.
Let’s be honest, this “time period” for it to work can be highly deceptive.
Best you take an honest look at people(in particular leaders) who lived by such claims and promises for many years.
You can’t use the “sanctification period” as an excuse for these people because, there are enough news and scandals to support our position that grace power(according to JP doctrine) is more froth than substance.
You see, at the end of the day, if supernatural ability is absolute as claimed, no one should fail let alone leaders.
Furthermore, In Adam, man’s nature became SINFUL(according to your doctrine). In the second Adam, Christ, shouldn’t we be SINLESS(logically?).? Why are you guys still living in perpetual SIN?
(Thanks for your reply – Tim/SHF)
Is grace power (according to JP’s doctrine) more froth than substance? I personally believe in the substance of the power of grace. The whole Christian journey starts from grace for “While we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Rom 5:8).
Am I here to prove my Christian faith, that grace power changed my life? No. I believe what I believe and while I love to share what I believe, I do not force anyone to believe or agree with what I believe. Grace works in my life.
It’s like this: there are patients who go through chemotherapy treatment for their cancers, some are cured while some are not. Do we then totally dismiss this chemotherapy treatment based solely on those negative results? No, we don’t. We find out why it works and why it doesn’t work, and the answer may take years but we shouldn’t just simply dismiss the treatment as useless and throw it away.
Chin, while you are right that there are many reasons for change, to attribute none of the change we see in Christians or NCC to non-supernatural/spiritual factors is as extreme and wrong as attributing all to such factors. Furthermore, God works through so-called non-spiritual / supernatural ways too. And sometimes so-called secular principles like positive thinking and such have an element of biblical truth in them.
I do understand where you’re coming from because as I mentioned I’ve talked to NCC people who struggle with similar issues. For me, the correct reaction isn’t to over-react and label everything in NCC or Christianity as absolutely nonsense. By doing that, you become as extreme as the people you’re being critical of.
Again, as I’ve mentioned, I think one needs to properly understand the “already” and “not yet” aspects of the Kingdom of God. Full power and perfection and all things wonderful that we associate with heaven has come in Christ, but will only be here in all its fullness when He returns. Many people would say that NCC’s theology (and generally Word of Faith churches) focus too much or only on the “already” and perhaps they could be criticized for believing everything is here and now already (1 Cor. 4:8), when they need to recognize there’s the “not yet” aspect. I think there’s a certain truth in this criticism. However, if they are at fault, so are churches who constantly criticize NCC of their “over-realized eschatology” and go the other extreme to emphasize only the “not yet”, not seeing any place for prosperity, healings, miracles, blessings, favour, etc. in the Christian life.
I think NCC needs to be careful not to portray to everyone that the Kingdom of God is here in all its fullness. For there will be people who struggle when they see it doesn’t work and they may then question their faith or question Christianity in general because all these truths that they’ve been taught doesn’t seem to work. In the same token, churches which always focus on the “not yet” aspects of the Kingdom need to recognize that the Kingdom is “already” here. They need to preach more about that and exercise more faith to see God’s miraculous wonders. The church may not be able to be as fully powerful as it will be at the end, but it definitely should be known as a powerful community moving in the power of God – and becoming more and more powerful as the end draws nearer.
In the end, while one may need to be careful about NCC focusing so much on the “already”, I’m not too bothered because I do think we should be seeking more and more of the Kingdom’s power as we draw nearer to the end. We should expect and pray and preach more and more on the “already” aspect, not on the “not yet”, expecting God’s power to come. I think that’s the posture of the Christian in the New Covenant between the “already” and the “not yet”.
Chin,
You have indeed brought up many valid questions. I can understand where you are coming from, as these are the same questions I have asked over many years.
Sanctification is a process, and it is a lifelong process. At the point of accepting salvation, a person is reunited with his creator God. And just like any other relationship, it takes time, commitment, trust, loyalty etc. for the relationship to develop.
To put it simply, there are 3 dimensions. We live on earth, in the world. This is one dimension. God is in heaven, this is the 2nd dimension. Thirdly there is the spiritual realm between heaven and earth.
When Jesus said, ‘let Your kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven’, He was referring to the first 2 dimensions. In heaven where the Kingdom of God is, there is no sin. On earth where Jesus prayed that may the Kingdom come, believers still live in a physical body with a sinful nature. So it will always be a battle between the 2; between allowing more of the Kingdom, the grace, the love, the truth into us etc. versus allowing sin to continue to reign. Submission and obedience to God, starting from the inward things, brings more of God and His Kingdom into our lives.
Our worldly and scientific mindsets limit our lens of understanding to only things of the world. So we tend to measure and judge by these standards; using our own measures of time, behaviour indicators and quantifiers etc. This was what I did. Having used my scientific knowledge to appraise the church, I exasperated over these shortcomings. Then I realised I spent so much time and energy exasperating I had become bitter, frustrated and angry. And that opened the door to sin in my life. But that is another story…
In concluding, I would say that what you have brought up are valid concerns, and they do deserve attention. My suggestion is look to God that He will start with us, that He will start with changing our heart and our lens, to see as He sees, and to bring right change in His way, in His time, according to His methods. Those that seek Him with all their heart do find Him, as I can testify personally :)
God bless you.
it’s very disheartening reading some of the comments here. honestly i am beyond tired. if they are from christians, i lagi more tired! i don’t want to be pretentious so i will admit that the devil have succeeded in getting people to avoid the church. at least he succeeded with me. i guess that makes me a loser. to hear the constant bashing, especially in recent years, of the church that has been my lifeline in many ways, is very discouraging and hurtful. when i first got saved, there was this pure and innocent joy to share the good news. i remember inviting a friend of mine to NCC. she was deeply moved and over the next few years, one after another of her family members came to christ. a few years ago she sent me a christmas card with only these words…thank you, thank you, thank you (for bringing me to chruch and introducing me to christ). even now as i am writing this, it brought tears to my eyes. it’s the best christmas card i ever received. all that was before blogs existed, before i started reading comments and forums and the media. a lot has changed since then. it’s difficult not to be affected by all the criticism and judgment and the spirit behind them. yet it is difficult to avoid them if one doesn’t wish to be a christian living only in her own world. i love to read. i have gained a more balanced view of my faith through reading viewpoints and experiences of other believers. unfortunately it has also costs me. fortunately i receive a lot of positive input from church every week. otherwise my faith journey might not have lasted this long. but all the poison has finally caught up with me. my relationship with christ and NCC has become a very private thing. i have no desire to invite anyone to church or mention anything about ncc, church or even jesus. in the eyes of non-believers, they are all the same. with believers, i don’t mention NCC because it makes them run before i have the opportunity to speak. the prejudice is just too great. so i remain silent. i don’t need more people bashing my chruch or my faith. i am done for now. i need time to recover.
how has NCC changed my life? i can’t tell you without telling you how Jesus changed my life because the focus on Christ is central to NCC. yes there are other stuff that is being preached which i am not always comfortable with but Jesus is always central. maybe you meant how NCC has helped my faith journey. it is difficult to prove to you in a tangible way. what i can say simply is that the Jesus that is presented by NCC is the reason why hope is alive even in my bleakest hour. there is an inner buoyancy that sustains my soul when my circumstances are an utter shipwreck. that Jesus is what motivated me to pick myself up and start again when i fail to live up to the christian ideal. when i thought i have completely lost my innocence because i have lost faith in humanity, when there is no one i can trust anymore, that Jesus encourages me to seek beauty in the midst of ugliness. i don’t know if i have personally impacted anyone by these but they sure does keep me from giving up on life.
right now, i am really tired. i need to withdraw into my church and behold the Jesus that I know again.
SHF,
If I say your “not yet” is a hollow wait, your retort would probably be that I am a doubting Thomas. Hope it won’t sound like a dampener when I say, your holistic optimism of that divine transformation(no less than christ likeness) is as good as waiting for our bodies to stop aging. In life, many will not be an Einstein or have what it takes to be a world class musician. Yet, we expect people to live and behave like “Mother Terasa”. Such unrealistic religious expectation on people can be psychologically damaging in the long term.
I have read the bible and i am able to separate between myths and reality or rather, see reality in myths.
I am pretty sure there is no physical return of christ. His return is in another form.
Tim,
In religious language, you call it sanctification, In modern language, we call it a mellowing process. All people mellow through experiences. Most of the time, we become better or wiser with age. And there is no evidence to suggest that christian sanctification is any better than the ordinary process of maturing unless you achieve “Christ like” or a “Mother Teresa” – which is unlikely.
I do not recall the bible specifically mentioned that my human nature, which I am born with, is sinful. Sin is relative to the “knowledge of good and evil” or the one who insists on curtailing my rights. As for the Kingdom of God , like any other Kingdoms, it is by nature political and therefore, it is not an internal battle with self. To see it from a spiritual perspective is be defeated in the Kingdom vision on earth.
rk,
Your experience is perfectly understandable in a world that makes rats(rat race) out of humans. I do agree your spirit can be lifted in a positive environment. Your soul can also find relieve and solace in religious music. Relationship in a “spirit world” offers comfort too but we maybe lulled into a spiritual slumber and lose our birth rights or mandate on earth as it is in heaven – a systematic deconstruction of our social responsibility.
Thanks for a robust exchange and the varied points of views.
Chin,
I come from a Protestant background, very different from what the other NCC or reformed viewpoints may be like. And even then, I see things very differently from yourself.
I think the whole point about Christianity is that we, in ourselves, cannot, and can never be a Mother Theresa. That there is a law, and that we have failed it. It’s upon realising this, and accepting salvation and grace, that we are transformed.
I understand that it’s never really clear from a human point of view whether what christians call santification is superior to maturing or other forms of life improvement. I don’t think it’s possibly from our vantage point to say, scientifically, Christian santification produces a better result.
But Christianity is not a broad-based plan or model for us to administer over society. It’s a personal journey – God finds me, I feel empowered, I feel God’s work in my life, I want to share this and tell people about it. I wouldn’t be saying, Christianity’s good for everybody, everyone listen to me and buy into it, follow the rules, and all that.
Instead, it’s more: meeting Christ has been wonderful for me. He has changed my life. Let him change yours too. In that sense, a spiritual perspective doesn’t make me go into some slumber. It energises me and what I do follows from it – be it helping the poor or whatnot.
So, has the bible said that we have a sinful nature? Yes, all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Is sin relative? Well, certainly, relative to the absolute morality of God. Is the Kingdom of God political? I don’t know what you mean by this. But it certainly is spiritual. And I don’t see how that would contradict the Kingdom here on earth.
Hope I haven’t dragged this on for too long. God bless!
Jared,
Your genesis and my genesis is different.
You accepted a story that basically condemns your humanity. This can be traced to a naked couple who made one wrong move(one) and offended an intolerant God.
Subsequently, to save you from a historical mistake, someone innocent has to be punished for your condemned or sinful nature.
So you begin a life long journey of self improvement/sanctification to be like “christ”.
But how many actually succeed with this gospel?
I don’t think statistic is on your side and is flattering at all?
Nevertheless, you faithfully soldier on your christian life in church activities.Unfortunately, there are also many(more perhaps) do not possess such endurance and slowly sidetracked or passively holding onto whatever shred left of their beliefs on their own.
Unlike you, I came out of that version a long time ago. My nature or humanity was never condemned but was exploited by hegemony rule and where the source of SIN originated is where Jesus dismantled its power and raised a kingdom or a nation of kings.
Now here lies the difference. We have a very different starting point-obviously. The version you have accepted generally keeps most of you battling that inward “demon” because SIN is within you. To me, that slant completely defeats the political kingdom of God here on earth. Put it this way, the best kind of enemies to fight are those who fight their own shadows.
Whereas my starting point is that SIN is without pressing in – don’t condemn my humanity because, there is nothing to perfect there but to be and to grow.
Since SIN is without, and pressing in, we work towards establishing the Kingdom of God WITHOUT, restoring the people’s birthright!
Therefore the gospel of the kingdom is a story more relevant to the world we are living in(we are not waiting to “eject” at all). This is a gospel that gets everyone involve because, there is no exclusive membership there.
However, I understand your natural preference for a personal salvation gospel. Why not? It is about you and thus, a wider appeal naturally.
Hi Brother and Sister in Christ,
Guess this post on walk in love will answer most of the arguments here:
http://stephanienjesus.blogspot.com/2010/03/walk-in-love.html
No disrespect, I think is the “Christian love” that kills all of us.
Hi guys,
I’m not going to publish any more off-topic or rude comments. The topic of this post is about the place of the 10 Commandments in the life of the Christian today. As much as I believe that some of the other issues raised above are worthy of discussion, this is really not the place. Feel free to email me or others if you want to discuss those things privately.
I don’t want to sound too authoritarian here ;) Other blogs may allow a free-for-all in terms of publishing off-topic and rude comments, but I’ve tried to prevent that from happening here because I think it’s simply pointless – and doesn’t bring the best out of each of us! I know there are lots of commenters who are not interested in a proper discussion of the topic at hand, but are just out to hijack the conversation and draw attention to their attacks. I won’t allow that on this blog. This blog wasn’t catered for those who want to prove other people wrong or attack New Creation or attack Christianity. There are other blogs where you can do that. This blog is really for people who appreciate constructive discussion and criticism. I’ve never deleted a comment for taking any particular stance on the topic at hand, but I have for the tone of the post, the language used and the off-topic-ness.
As long as your comments are on-topic (or at least close to it) and does not violate basic comment etiquette, I’ll be more than happy to approve your comments, whether you agree with what I or others have written. And if you’d like to discuss something that’s not related to the post, feel free to email me at stupidauthoritarian at stillhaventfound.org and I’ll definitely consider posting something related to that topic for the readers to discuss. Controlfreak at stillhaventfound.org will also do :)
Having said that, you are allowed to comment (off-topic-ally) on this comment – whether you think I’m just being an ass (a sure way for your comments not to be posted) or that you agree with this “policy” or whatever.
Cheers!
P.S.: If you think I’m an ass for being such an authoritarian, just keep it to yourself, substantiate your arguments, use gentler words and your comment should see the light of day :)
Hi SHF,
Don’t worry I agree with you that we should stay on topic, although at some point in time we can address Chin’s issues about the authenticity of the Bible, and whether true transformation only happens within the Christian faith.
I am from NCC, and in the same way agree with NCC (and more importantly with the apostle Paul) that we are no longer under the 10 commandments. And I think personally through my own experiences that liberty from sin lies in beholding the love of Christ, not by consciously trying to keep the 10 commandments.
I think you mentioned in your previous posts that you disagree with how we perceive people who are under the 10 commandments. Some New Covenant believers I have met continue to bash people who are under the law and declare they are under a curse (Galatians 3:10).
Well I still believe and have seen that my friends who believe in the 10 commandments for the purpose of sanctification, still experience blessings, healings, breakthroughs. I am not able to quantity if they “receive less or more”, but I know it happens. Just like what Pastor Kong says, Billy Graham loves the 10 commandments, and I have heard it myself through one of his interviews. Are we to say that he is under a curse? And hence it is hard to believe that they are “under a curse”. I don’t think it is right for us to declare them under any curse, for the scriptures have already mentioned very clearly that we, as believers, are in Christ.
My suspicion of what happens is that for every believer, whether we are new covenant, or under the preaching of “mixture”, we often come to situations where we come to the end of ourselves. Meaning that at that particular point in time, we know that nothing will help us – not principles, not the 10 commandments, not positive thinking, and we cry out to Jesus. And these prayers are definitely answered – be it healing, or financial lack, or a deliverance from bondage. But after the deliverances happen, some of us return to the routine of “mixture”, believing that the deliverance happened because of Jesus + prayer + fasting + obeying the 10 commandments.
Your thoughts on this?
I think whether or not a believer agrees about whether we are still under the 10 commandments or not, the principle of the 10 commandments hasn’t changed from OT to NT, just like how God’s heart never changes. Perhaps it would be more relevant for us to take our focus off whether we should be obeying the commandments or not and to instead look at God’s heart behind the law. If they were meant as instructions in the past and we believe and trust the goodness of God, then we can only regard this set of instructions as guidance to the kind of life that God has in mind for us. This set of instructions no longer hold for us in the new covenant, but that doesn’t indicate any change in God’s heart for us when it comes to the kind of life He wants us to lead. The bottom line is that of all the commandments, the greatest of these all is to love God and perhaps with that, the relevance of whether we are still under the rest of the commandments becomes less of an important issue. When one loves God, one naturally desires to live the kind of life God wants him to have.
In other off topic issues, I believe the writer of the blog has the right to decide the way his blog is managed and is not obliged to answer to anyone about how it is managed. A blog is still afterall an individual’s own platform to express his opinions and views. I think some readers (like me) appreciate this blog platform also because we find that it is a platform that invites meaningful discussion about issues that are relevant to our searching and growing in our Christian journey. There is value and function in such a blog platform and to manage it in a way that maintains such a value and function requires responsibility on the author’s part and I think that has been achieved to some extent. SHF has not simply ignored comments that were not related to the post but has extended an invitation for comments not relevant to the post, but relevant to other issues no doubt, to be emailed to a separate email address and that can become another platform for more discussion.
Hi brother and sister in Christ,
Having walk so close with Lord these few years, actually, if you just look to Jesus and let the Holy Spirit lead you by His Grace, what you walk out would be more than what the 10 commandments told you to follow.
10 commandments is about man efforts to walk out the Law specified by Lord.
Walking in Spirit directed activities, trusting and obeying His Words as the spirit leads, and give you Grace and Favour and the Peace of God, all that you obey and walk out will be effortless.
Glory Glory!
In the nature, I can’t imagine to give away all my wealth and family. Lead by the Spirit, I fulfilled it with the Peace of God stabling my heart.
So, do not quarrel the relevant of 10 commandments.
Learn more about what Jesus has done for you. Pastor Prince sermons that revealed about Jesus is good in leading one who choose to believe to mind renewal. Once you think like Jesus, Lord leads you to read his words and talk to him through meditation.
His leading is with Great Grace and Favour. No stress, no fear at all.
With that, what you can accomplish through Him will be greater, as Jesus is the Start and the End, He, who write the 10 commandments will be able to give you Grace to walk it out effortlessly. Glory to Lord Jesus. Amen Amen!
Shalom!
Hey donkey,
Yes, I think one can’t really use Galatians 3:10 to say Christians are under a curse unless of course they are trusting in their obedience of the 10 commandments for their salvation. Most Christians who may disagree with NCC will not say that they are trusting in the 10 commandments for their justification, but they will use it as a guide for their sanctification. I think that’s wrong, but they are definitely not under the curse!
I’m still thinking about the role of prayer and fasting in receiving “breakthroughs”from God. Will write more on that one day and would be interested to hear your thoughts. I’m also hoping to put up some testimonies of Christians who have been transformed by the gospel of grace. I would love to hear your testimony. Will email you and we should catch up one day also :)
On another note, please do not send any emails to stupidauthoritarian or controlfreak at stillhaventfound.org. My server is meant to redirect all emails to another email account, but somehow it’s not recognizing those two keywords. I guess that’s affirmation that I’m none of those! ¡Muchas gracias señor servidor! You can email me at idealist at stillhaventfound.org email.
I agree with what you have said about this topic not being an essential doctrine. I would not want to die for it.
There are respectable theologians taking different positions along the continuum. I personally find Douglas Moo’s arguments very persuasive.
I pray that this blog will be a place where readers’ come with openness and humility. Everyone can take home something!
Read this this morning from a facebook post, an excerpt from Norman Grubb “Who am I” which I think reconciles the law, Christ, and a Christian keeping the law:
“So the moment we humans, not yet recognizing Christ in us as the only keeper of His own law, want ourselves to keep it, and slip into this old habit of thinking we can do it, then down we fall. We can’t do what we want to do, and we do what we should not. Oh wretched man! And the law of God stands there to demand of us that we keep it, if we think we can! Then at last it dawns. Our human self is now a container of Another Self, Christ, the Spirit of Christ. We never were meant as humans to keep God’s laws of self-giving love.
Left to our human selves, we can only be ourselves and love ourselves. But that is just why Christ has come into us — to replace that evil spirit of self-centeredness by which we had lived. By ourselves, we would still remain self-loving selves, but we are not ourselves any more. By inner union, Christ is our real self. So what do we now do? We tell the law it is no use to shout at us, because we can’t fulfill it, were never meant to; but we contain the One who can and does. So the law has not a thing to say to us or demand of us. We are ‘dead to the law’ in Christ. And now we are free by simple recognition that Christ in us, Christ as us, keeps His own law in us, so that ‘the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us’ who are now walking by inner recognition of the Spirit, and not recognition of that old self-effort.
How thankful I was when, as a young missionary, longing to be ‘improved’ — to love more, have more faith, the Spirit said to me, ‘Drop that. You can never be improved. You are just a vessel.’ And then He showed me that simple fact that God is love, not has love, and I saw for the first time that love is a person, God Himself; and that it was not a matter of my being made loving, but of me being the vessel which contained Him who is the love. I learned then to change from the false idea of becoming something, to containing Someone.”
i am the person who wrote that depressing comment no.18 above. i just want to tell everyone that i’ve recovered and i want to share this with everyone who has lost faith in the things of God. i had unknowningly make myself food for the devil. in recent years there has been a lot of outside criticism about my pastor and questioning of his gift of teaching. I was also very affected by a lot of believers attacking one another on the web (it is so depressing)and bad press in the local papers about certain churches and church figures here. It really stole my joy, confidance and hope in the things of God. but 2 nigths ago i heard one of the best sermons ever. (God truly knows my heart and sent a word in season for me) i came out of the service feeling SPOTLESS, REBORN and FULL OF LIFE and HOPE! pastor calls it the most important message a believer could hear pertaining to christian living and he is so right. i realize now that the body of Christ has been under attack and we must use of gift of exhortation to lift up our brethrens. if any of you are as hungry as i am, do get the sermon cd when it is out. it’s difficult to elaborate here. you’ll need to hear the entire sermon to be able to benefit fully. cd will be available at New Creation Church. midweek service by ps prince. 28th April 2010. not sure what the title is going to be.
grace and peace to all of you, the united body of christ!
I think its just a big misunderstanding. Our fundamental salvation through Jesus once and for all remain the same. If two has an issue, the two must go sit down and taught it over and not let the evil one a foothold. No need to blast each other in cyberplace. Its not how Christians behave. We solve things peacefully, not like the world do.